The truth about the London fashion system

Lucile Guilmard: What are you up to these days?

Christopher Shannon: Well, I did manage to furlough myself. I’ve wanted a break for such a long time. Before the Covid outbreak, I really hated being on holiday, because I couldn’t relax at all. I was so overwhelmed with work and this constant responsibility. I thought to myself, “This is pointless. I am working all year on with no holidays in-between, and then I go on holidays and I can’t even enjoy it?” That’s when I realised that something needed to change. By the time you’re involved with different kinds of contracts, properties, and premises, you can’t really get away from things efficiently. I had known for a while that I did not want to carry on having a wholesale business. Bit by bit, I could see the holes in the whole system. Once you’ve seen them, you can’t unsee them. You can either carry on with the lunacy or try and make a change. I couldn’t change the industry, but I could change what I wanted to do. I liked being with my team, developing ideas, but I hated being at the studio and being dragged into work all the time. I just couldn’t stand it any longer. You cannot make any decisions with the type of brand that I have – we’re so reliant on collaborations. If you take it down to the wholesale business, there’s not much money made there. You are in boutique stores with small buys – it’s for the prestige. The prestige of what?

“When it’s your own company, you have to check where you are wasting money and what is making money. More and more, I realised that I was generating income for other people and not for myself. ” – Christopher Shannon

Τhe last time I did a show, I didn’t care what the audience thought. I thought, “Something must be wrong, I should care about this, but I don’t.” It’s different when you’re working for a brand, where you get paid for putting shows together. When it’s your own company, you have to check where you are wasting money and what is making money. More and more, I realised that I was generating income for other people and not for myself. That’s the kind of hole you’re falling into by being an independent brand. You pay for models, venues, storage, factories, multiple studio spaces, and apartments – it’s a lot of money to fund it. When the cash flow is good, you just keep going. I’ve thought about what Covid has done, and it has given me the opportunity to put my money where my mouth is. I kept hearing about people moving away, but how do you do that? Can you find teams and resources? And the answer is that you can. Realistically, you don’t need to be in London. The independent companies making money are not the companies showing at London Fashion Week. Then you start looking at the corruption of LFW, and it becomes hard to look at fashion the same way.

“The independent companies making money are not the companies showing at London Fashion Week. ” – Christopher Shannon

Olya Kuryshchuk: For me, the most shocking thing happened about two years ago. We went to Paris to visit the showrooms and find places that would support designers for one to two seasons. It was so eye-opening. There were brands we thought were doing amazingly in London, but their sales would be 40k. If they were doing really well, they would make 120k. They would have shows and crazy expensive presentations, while brands that have never had a show or a presentation would sell five million dollars.

CS: I’ve seen loads of brands that you have never even heard of.

“Suddenly, it was like what’s interesting doesn’t matter. Rather, do some party dresses that will sell on NET-A-PORTER, then you will get 200k. When you’re in some shitty studio in East London and that’s what it takes, you’re doing it.” – Christopher Shannon

OK: The press would be like, “Who?” These brands have decided to go straight on product and slowly build their business from there.

CS: I remember when I started, we did those initial shows. There was no men’s fashion week. And there certainly wasn’t a culture of London brands going to Paris to sell clothes that way, certainly not menswear brands. We sort of made it up as we went along. Initially, loads of Asian stores were interested, because they’ve always been the quickest off the mark regarding the type of work that was a little more forward. Later, there were some stores in LA. What has corrupted London in many ways was selling this idea that one business model fits all. It’s fucked up. It ruined lots of people’s work, especially in womenswear. Suddenly, it was like what’s interesting doesn’t matter. Rather, do some party dresses that will sell on NET-A-PORTER, then you will get 200k. When you’re in some shitty studio in East London and that’s what it takes, you’re doing it. But then, everyone is making party dresses and no one ends up giving a shit about party dresses because there are so many of them. It took people’s identity away. My early work was very streetwear/sportswear. At that point, no one else was doing that, so I felt very singular and slightly judged. However, I knew it was right, had desirability and looked good. I knew that I didn’t want to do tailoring and wasn’t interested in skinny leather trousers. I hated all those old references. Everyone got onto that bandwagon, and I knew at that moment that I could be pushed down a very dry road of just doing sportswear. When I think about it – I was never streetwear enough for the streetwear crowd, I was never fashion enough for the fashion crowd. That liberates you from belonging to anything. Once you belong to something, it’s a sinking ship. I just make a lot of things and work on a lot of ideas. Some of which have been commercially successful and have changed the tone, especially within menswear in London.

“Any time anything exciting happens in the world, people with money move in and try to exploit it. ” – Christopher Shannon

LG: So you would say not being specialised is better?

CS: It depends on what you want and the reasons why you want a brand. At this point in time, you know so much more at an MA level about going into the industry. You’ve seen so many people make mistakes. We couldn’t sell clothes six years ago without a wholesale account. Direct consumerism wasn’t as straightforward as it is now, which is exciting. I think multi-buy online stores have never ever looked dryer or less interesting to me. People have gotten so good at working with factories that it sort of killed what made London special. All the products look the same, whereas what people come to London for is rawness.

Any time anything exciting happens in the world, people with money move in and try to exploit it. Like the MA Fashion at Central Saint Martins; It’s like One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest, isn’t it? It’s such an insane environment – so intense and particular. You’ll never be the same once you come out on the other side of it. Graduates aren’t necessarily the people that need to then be making commercialised ideas that sell ten thousand units at once. I think you have to choose what you’re in it for. For me, I started making money quite fast, so I didn’t have to think about that. I look back and realise how rare that was. Not everyone was making money, especially not in womenswear. What they say is that if you treat your work a certain way, you’ll get big orders in. But what is that? The ones who say that are not designers or art directors.

I think what I am doing is thinking about the last ten years, which is why the answers to what I am doing right now have become so long. I never really had the time to do this before. My collections are archived in some warehouses. When I finally opened the boxes and saw my stuff, I thought, “Wow, that looks good. Why does it still look good?” It is because it’s personal work which is the best kind of work because it is based on your instinct. That way, it stays alive. I can see pieces that are fillers that we would throw in to please a store. It’s a shame. I don’t know if this generation, MA students and graduates, think about stores that way or whether they think about their own work and presence.

“It’s the designers who should lead the industry, not the other way around.”  – Christopher Shannon

LG: From what I’ve seen, it is about their own work. I have the impression that people are less and less interested in compromising just for the sake of making it. It’s almost arrogance, I would say. In my class, at least, people voice how they want to do it, and it will be done that way. No compromise.

CS: For me, that’s the way it should be. It’s the designers who should lead the industry, not the other way around. What has happened is that it has gone the other way around. The buyers are dictating, but that’s not the point. That is not why we go to college to learn about design and indulge ourselves in those ways. I feel like there’s a tipping point back. There are always exciting people that come out of CSM because it’s just such a place of lunacy. Seeing those people making their own paths, setting up their own e-commerce and forgetting about the rest of it, is really enticing to me. There is nothing less desirable than readily available things. Why would you like to look at the same stuff across eight platforms? Maybe if you buy a jacket to just go to work in, it doesn’t matter, but that’s not fashion. I don’t want to visit fifteen different multi-brand stores online and see the same eight brands. What’s the point in the stores being different, might as well just be one giant store with one algorithm-based buyer. Your generation has seen the mess of the last ten years. I think you’re fine as long as you hold your own nerve and be confident in your ideas. You don’t need someone from some stupid system to tell you that your work has value.

“London Fashion Week as an event makes money for people, not designers. The last people it makes money for are designers (…) On these platforms, they never tell you that 90% of the alumni are in debt. I managed to avoid that, but most people don’t. No one talks about it.” – Christopher Shannon

LG: From what I’m hearing from you, it sounds like it started on a positive note when you graduated, and then everything happened very naturally. Then one day, you stopped and looked back.

CS: Even before I stopped, I was already bored. I realised that I am not the person to be in that system. I believed in this idea that if you showed well on the catwalk, that led to a successful financial business. That’s not true. But, London depends on that. London Fashion Week as an event makes money for people, not designers. The last people it makes money for are designers. The lack of transparency around that is cruel. They bring you in to make something with your name on it to charge people 200 times more. It’s completely corrupt, as far as I can tell. That might have been fine years ago when people didn’t really understand it, but that has changed. On these platforms, they never tell you that 90% of the alumni are in debt. I managed to avoid that, but most people don’t. No one talks about it.

LG: How would you advise someone to do it the right way, now that you’ve come to this realisation?

CS: Don’t engage with the system in the same way. Create your own path. There are examples of great people who never got any support and went on to be more successful than those who did. You have to keep putting your work out and believe in what you do. It can be very tricky. Unless you have loads of money, then you can do LFW easily. I suppose it’s different for me because I never wanted to do that. All of that didn’t really exist in the same way when I was doing the MA. Suddenly, with more menswear designers coming through, it became a bigger thing. When I left CSM, I thought I would just go and get a job. That was the plan.

LG: Do you regret that?

CS: Not when I speak to my friends in the industry who have had jobs. They’re all bored, and they probably have more regrets because of not having done more of their own work. At this point, I’ve got a budget that can take me in any direction, and that is a really nice feeling.

OK: It’s interesting – running your own brand: you got bored, but so did people with jobs in the industry. So what kind of direction does that give to designers?

CS: I don’t want to be disheartening. You have different platforms now, you know what socials are. I think that the people who do smaller things will last longer. And also maintain integrity. Think of someone like Christopher Nemeth or Alaia. I think Alaia’s business model is really good, the quality is gorgeous. I know he’s not here anymore, but doing it in that very small way, finding your customer and not engaging in the oddness of hype.

Also, when we started, there was no one to ask. I have worked for people who had done shows, but they all went into the industry doing other things. When I started, I did not have a clear vision of what I could be, because there was no structure to it. Everything we did, we learnt on the go. I did work for Kim [Jones] for a bit, and he never got into selling clothes. He always just did projects. It was always about making money and visuals. Not a wholesale business. I think he knew, even at that point, it’s a miserable way to go. We all know that making clothes is really difficult.

LG: It’s quite interesting that now it has become a business model where all brands just look for partnerships with one another. They all have this great creative direction in their collections, shoots, shows, and yet, barely anything is produced. Maybe you have it in one store for visibility. Everything else is just partnerships with brands.

CS: I mean, it works. I was only ever in it to make ideas anyway. Wholesale domination never meant success to me. Then I saw other people do it, like Mary Katrantzou. She was the first person, really, in the digital era from CSM to sell a lot of clothes. It was a really particular look, and it worked really, really well online. And she was also very ambitious. I started looking at her from a distance, thinking that you can grow and grow on a wholesale level and never make any profit. Your turnover goes up and up and up, but that also means having to take up a bigger studio, hire more staff, needing bigger distribution. It depends on what you want.

“You’ve got loads of fucking rent to pay in London and you become obsessed with making money. That’s the trick of the city. Loads of landlords in London have made loads of money off me over the last ten years. That’s the legacy that you leave. ” – Christopher Shannon

OK: I think the question is about defining yourself as a young designer and what success means to you.

CS: I was looking at stores recently because we were thinking about rebuilding the site. I realised that I don’t really know how I want my store to be. And to be honest, my online store works as it is. Am I making this more complicated for no reason? I was on Matty’s [Bovan] site, it was so rough and brilliant. Just made all those pieces and hung them on the door and sold them. I love Matty anyway because he has that energy. It was the only store I looked at that felt in any way personal. Just pieces, nothing else. And then I went back to buy something, and it was all sold out. Why does it need to be more than that? In all honesty, you’ve got loads of fucking rent to pay in London and you become obsessed with making money. That’s the trick of the city. Loads of landlords in London have made loads of money off me over the last ten years. That’s the legacy that you leave. I was just tired and wanted to make some money for myself. Five years ago, it was about being shot in magazines – who the fuck reads magazines? Digital magazines? Yeah. But those pages in print, do people engage with that? I’m saying this because I personally don’t. Maybe people do? Do people still buy fashion magazines to look at fashion spreads?

OK: We do sell out every issue of 1 Granary though, and I am sure we are not the only ones.

CS: But your magazine is like a singular thing, isn’t it? It’s like a single entity. I mean all those ‘filler magazines’ that just do shoot after shoot of nothingness.

OK: Print is like the last gate that holds the industry. The way agencies work now is a photographer will only shoot if it’s for print. So a magazine, no matter the amount of copies sold, is there for the shoot to even happen and for the creative team to agree to the shoot. Online, you can just publish whatever. There is no limit, no filter. Theoretically, you could have a thousand stories published every day on a website. Print is the physical element that makes the industry slow down and think. The physicality of it and the high cost make the teams be very selective about who they work with and what gets published. You are forced to edit. It’s actually healthy that the magazines are still there.

“I didn’t sleep before Covid, because I hadn’t slept for years, as work would keep me awake all the time. I had to teach myself to go to bed. ” – Christopher Shannon

CS: You couldn’t build a designer profile now just on being in print magazines, could you?

OK: I can see every print magazine having big Instagram accounts and websites. The shoots are intended for print but do go online in the end. Every story is shared on socials. Everyone cares about the digital age, yet produces for print.

CS: Redefining your success and what your happiness is. That is something we CSM people talk about a lot. It’s what everyone has done in the last twelve months regardless of fashion, background, and industry. For me, that has been being able to make the work I want to make. Get it out there and make money out of it in a way that is profitable without having to sink a ship making loads of it. Also, being away and having a life separate from it. I didn’t sleep before Covid, because I hadn’t slept for years, as work would keep me awake all the time. I had to teach myself to go to bed.

OK: I had the same issue.

CS: You know what? I love it. I love going to bed. I’m going to bed now because I can. Even if I just end up reading. I don’t want this lunacy and pressure. I don’t know what this pressure feels like for graduates now. I don’t feel like, from the outside, graduates think that doing LFW is the answer to what they’re looking for. But I could be wrong.

“In a way, we don’t have designers anymore, do we? We have PRs.” – Christopher Shannon

OK: There are so many examples of designers that actually can’t design at all, but through their enigmatic personalities, looks, social media, friends, or celebrities, they manage to thrive. And for me, that’s also a valid journey. They are skilled entrepreneurs with strong communication skills and it is great that there are different ways to success. What I do have an issue with, is how many graduates want to copy that journey just because they think it is the easy route.

CS: In a way, we don’t have designers anymore, do we? We have PRs. That’s what the job of being a designer is. At that level, it’s about being a personality and being able to PR yourself. That is something I was never interested in. At CSM, for a long time, everyone was really influenced by Margiela and people who didn’t have public profiles. It was just about work. I remember seeing a change happen, thinking that it’s a really bad sign. If your work is good, you shouldn’t have to promote yourself.

“It’s where good fashion comes from – disruption. Not following some weird schedule. Dealing with that schedule in fashion felt like being back at school, like being trapped in hell. ” – Christopher Shannon

OK: If you go to every party every evening – when do you work?

CS: I don’t know how many times I’ve been invited to Buckingham Palace or Downing Street, and I’ve never been once because why would I want to with the things I believe in? Why would that have any meaning to me? It’s very weird, isn’t it, that that’s the idea of establishment? As designers, especially CSM designers, we’re supposed to be the people who disrupt that. It’s where good fashion comes from – disruption. Not following some weird schedule. Dealing with that schedule in fashion felt like being back at school, like being trapped in hell. You never ever are free of it, you always had to go back to school in September. There was a point when I was looking up opportunities, I was dealing with backers coming in and investors, having all those conversations. I’ve seen Richard Nicoll, I’ve seen Jonathan Saunders, I’ve seen all these people before me have investments. It’s a tricky thing because you end up working for someone else under your own name.

OK: That depends on the investor.

CS: A right investor and a right match are really rare. I remember my legal team saying to me, “I know this looks desirable, this offer we have on the table, but you have to be really careful you’re not making your life worse.” And it really stayed with me. I understand that because I’ve seen other people go through it. Suddenly, you don’t own your own name, which was my issue with the investment I was offered. If I can’t even use my own name, how do I move forward? It’s the one thing I’ve got. Sadly, it’s my human name. And sometimes I wish I had started a brand under a different name. At that point, I couldn’t take more risks with it. We had a jersey line called “Kidda” that we did some deals on and that was fine because it didn’t feel so personal. When it is the name you’re given at birth, weird feelings come with that.

OK: Think about it – every other person in the world can set up multiple companies during their lives. They can start and fail and start and fail, but your fifteenth company when you’re 50 years old finally works out. You got the idea, the team, and the direction to make it work. What all these guys at 23 or 24 do is start companies under their own names. And with that, you can only fail once, because all your self-worth is attached to that name.

“The idea that platforms in London care about designers is not the truth. You have to remember that every support structure in place is a money-making business.” – Christopher Shannon

CS: But also, look at other companies like Lanvin or Gaultier. So many of them have gone bankrupt during the 80s, multiple times. And they managed to get back up again and again. I didn’t mean to do it. I remember having done a couple of shows and I thought it would all stop anyway because there is no structure in London. Men’s fashion week is not going to happen, but then it did because I kept doing it. We kept turning up doing good shows, selling stuff. It looked like it was viable, but the help you get is so minimal compared to the number of tasks you have. You learn it all on the go, every day. And no one’s there to help you out. The idea that platforms in London care about designers is not the truth. You have to remember that every support structure in place is a money-making business.

OK: My issue now with the industry in London is the logic of superficial support as a mandatorily selfless act. It is this vague, idealistic thing, distanced from the notion of money as much as possible. If it was a real partnership with clear give and takes then these links would actually grow in the long run, avoiding new designers crashing after a few seasons.

CS: What they’re doing is exploiting them. They take the energy of others and turn it into their own cash. There’s a reason why people who’ve been part of such initiatives are in debt. It’s the lack of transparency. What you do at 1 Granary, from what I can tell, is have a level of transparency. That didn’t exist. If you asked the same question to others in fashion, you’d be shut down. I’ve never really learned to shut up, and I think that really unnerved people. I’ve always spoken my mind, which is something that’s encouraged during the MA.

“I think people don’t want to make big statements, because they’re too busy making money in a shady way. The greenwashing and all the other things that result from a lack of transparency. ” – Christopher Shanno

LG: You said that in fashion it became more about being a celebrity than being a creator of clothes. Would you agree that fashion as a platform can be used to make statements coming from all those designers that are big personalities and that people tend to listen to?

CS: Right now, I think people don’t want to make big statements, because they’re too busy making money in a shady way. The greenwashing and all the other things that result from a lack of transparency. I don’t know if people on that level would risk their income. They are egocentric. You have unusual people in the industry like Katherine Hamnett who was really radical. She said things other people didn’t dare to say. It’s the lack of honesty that keeps the money coming in for certain pockets in fashion.

LG: That makes complete sense. For example, when we look at your Instagram, it looks like that’s what you’re doing. You’re making statements, and it is more than just clothes and shapes. It’s opinions.

OK: What I really like is that it creates way more context for your clothes.

CS: I don’t know how not to do that. Originally, I said more things on Twitter and everyone would start asking me about it. It was just a thing we did in the office to amuse ourselves. It actually made me stop using Twitter because we are supposed to be designers. You kinda have to pick a side, and I will rather be someone who makes statements about creativity. People don’t really like designers who have opinions, I feel. They are used to journalists being the ones with opinions or celebrities. You don’t really hear much from the designers themselves.

OK: Christopher, don’t you feel that’s the problem of London – everything becomes BFC, four stylists, two publications, three platforms, and some parties. What that little group thinks becomes the general opinion. However, the industry is so big and there are many people who are keen on hearing other opinions.

CS: As soon as you get out of London, you realise how small it is. As a graduate designer, it’s a powerful thing, because it actually means that you’ve got a whole other arena to explore. That old structure is starting to break down since too many people have been through it. They’ve seen what is on the other side of it.

OK: Now there are showrooms who have infrastructures behind them – factories, production, sales. They almost come as partners while bringing cash as well. You basically get a really good partner who has the knowledge and doesn’t even ask to be a majority shareholder. This is the change in the industry. It all starts coming into place.

CS: I think business relationships are really hard to find. No one says to you what they really want out of this when you start. They just want you to do the legwork, so they have something to sell. I think a lot of structures in fashion, to this day, trade-offs of things from a long time ago. We still talk about McQueen, as if that’s recent in some way. And the poor guy isn’t even here anymore. It’s smart and it keeps you away from being critical because the attention is still on that one person who was successful fifteen years ago. The exciting thing right now is that as a graduate you don’t have to subscribe to wholesale or LFW. You don’t have to enter the system. Maybe it feels like there aren’t other ways to go, I don’t know.

“There isn’t always new talent or someone to talk about. To think that there is this conveyor belt of brilliance all the time – what happens to the people who do four seasons and then get stuck?” – Christopher Shannon

OK: I know some designers who have success stories with wholesale, but are not part of the BFC. There are a lot of examples now of different business models. But the press is not interested in writing about them. Graduates still receive only one angle. It’s one story and then no one speaks about you ever again, because they are already on to the new kid on the block.

CS: That’s really unhealthy. I remember Louise Wilson saying to me years ago, “How can they always have a new talent ambassador? There isn’t always new talent.” And that’s true. There isn’t always new talent or someone to talk about. To think that there is this conveyor belt of brilliance all the time – what happens to the people who do four seasons and then get stuck?

“The thing that’s criminal about it is that you have someone at 23 going into the system and by the time they’re 27, they carry 150 grand worth of personal debt. That ruins your life as a young person.” – Christopher Shannon

OK: I had this thought when the first LVMH prize happened. Where would they get this many designers every single year? They just don’t exist.

CS: You know what? Even I did the first one of that and there was so much shit. No offense, but I was like, “What the hell is this?” I mean, we had a blast. And they asked me to go back for the second one, and I thought – what’s the point? I don’t want to be judged this way. Standing around by a market stall being judged by people. Isn’t that what I always avoided? There were definitely people who looked like clean contenders that didn’t even get a look. When you saw the voting panel, you wondered who the fuck these people are. Also, what is the money for LVMH? It’s like pennies, isn’t it?

You can be five seasons in and have so much debt already. No one talks about it. The system wants you to pretend that people don’t fall into that. The thing that’s criminal about it is that you have someone at 23 going into the system and by the time they’re 27, they carry 150 grand worth of personal debt. That ruins your life as a young person. You’re in that debt because you’ve worked really hard, not because you’ve indulged. There isn’t a “London Fashion: Let’s get you out of debt”-fund. You can’t apply for that. I saw it happen again and again.

LG: It’s insane. You’re so right. You work your ass off, day and night, and then you find yourself in crazy debt.

CS: It’s fair enough to say that it’s people’s free will to do it. But it’s not, is it? They are taken into a system and told to do this and that. Even if you get to luxury investment – even that is proven not to work for people who’ve been bought up by big groups. They haven’t found their answers there. Some of them are brilliant creators. The idea is that sinking the planet with products is a success. We all want to look at old Gaultier, not new Gaultier. Not that I know what new Gaultier is, but I don’t want to look at a rehash of a luxury brand not done as well as the original. I’d rather go and find the old one. That energy is exciting because resale has no bad connotation around it anymore. It’s actually a quite chic thing to do. When I see people buy vintage and mix it, and don’t buy into supporting a really horrible department store – there’s something quite punk about that. Loads of brands look the same on many multi-brand e-commerce sites. To me, it’s not interesting. Maybe it is to other people.

“Luxury houses are always seen to make money from homages to dead queer or black creatives, but when it comes to collaborations its often with rich white men. ” – Christopher Shannon

OK: Do you see any change that happened in the industry while you’ve worked in it? Has anything improved at all?

CS: Well, I think loads of people are probably shitting themselves because they’ve got really bad track records of how they treated people. Everyone is generally concerned with keeping up their profiles and keeping making money off others. Watching people pretend to care about sustainability is painful because they know there is less money in it, so they don’t want to give a shit about it. This is a shame because luxury houses could really engage with newer talent and make interesting statements and work that’s actually desirable. Luxury houses are always seen to make money from homages to dead queer or black creatives, but when it comes to collaborations its often with rich white men. That seems to be the deal. Could all this money not go into new talent? It seems to be about keeping certain people rich.

I think people are intimidated as well. If you are in a company, maybe you don’t want some exciting new graduate coming into your company with lots of ideas. People might be nervous rather than being collaborative. From what I know of history, obviously, I used to spend lots of time with Judy [Blame], and he would always talk about how collaborative things would feel. People would work together and do things, and then sometime in the 90s, things got really nasty and ambitious. Everyone got secretive. I don’t know where we are exactly right now with these types of creative collaborations or communications.

OK: It’s hard to get emerging designers to even share information with each other.

CS: When you’re talking about taking designers to showrooms in Paris. How is that now? So many stores have closed.

OK: It’s really amazing to see that even with online sales during Covid, some brands experienced their peak sale periods. The market at the moment is really stretched, it lasts for one and a half months instead of just seven days. It’s non-stop buying for some really big stores. I feel like they give more chances now to designers.

CS: That’s interesting and positive. The other thing about subscribing to fashion week or the schedule – and this is the one thing I feel excited about – is because we are all pushing things through our own channels of e-commerce, I don’t have to do anything seasonal. That feels like complete liberation. I can drop whenever I want, whatever I want, wherever I want. If I work with a store, it’s a bespoke thing just for them. The minute you get back into that schedule – I just never need to live like that again. There is no value to it. Constantly chasing factories to get everything to the stores on time, make sure no one wants to discount things. That’s no way to live. Smaller independence can really build good relationships straight with the consumer. It depends on how much you want to make and how much you want to risk. Fashion is so high-risk. I don’t know what would drag me back into that.

LG: The shows and everything that comes with it wasn’t exciting for you? It’s not a moment of excitement that makes fashion an event and a celebration of diversity, bodies, and community?

CS: Some people love fashion shows. I didn’t come from that background where I was particularly interested in that. And weirdly, I am actually really good at them, which surprised me. I want this moment to feel emotive, and I was in a very autobiographical place with my work. It had nothing really to do with the brand, and I only realised recently when I did a day’s worth of filming a documentary. I was going through my work, and I never looked at it that way. It was like going through my diary. I never had a best-selling trouser that I carried on producing for five seasons. The thing about being excited – you can do all that off-schedule. It doesn’t have to belong to anything.

LG: Of course. To come back to what you’ve just said – in the beginning, you mentioned that it is important to keep the work personal. Do you think for it to be personal, it has to be autobiographical?

CS: You know, some people just like copying other people. Or being ruthlessly ambitious. That is the time that we live in. People don’t take time to develop ideas, because they want to work fast and make cash. They don’t really give a shit about it. I cared about my creativity, and I couldn’t generate the work unless it felt personal. For me, it was the other way around. I would see other people’s collections where they had a copy of a Balenciaga skirt with a copy of a Prada shoe made in different fabrics. Wow, what an efficient way to work. You don’t have to develop anything, you just copy it? People laugh it off in some ways. I couldn’t get into it, it did not feel genuine. I wasn’t trained that way. For me, looking back now, I am glad I did my work the way I did.

OK: You said you were trained differently. How do you see your transition from your education into the industry?

CS: Horrible. There are so many gorgeous things about college. Most of the people I speak to on a daily basis I either met on BA or MA, they are my friends. And then you go out, and it’s just not anything like college. The tone is so different. It is not about being with your mates, having fun, and coming up with loads of ideas. It’s a completely different type of ruthlessness and ambition that you encounter. I think I was really naive towards those things. I honestly thought I’d have a nice time doing collections and shows, making some money. There wasn’t a master plan. No one I admire creatively has that type of ambition. There is something off-putting about ambition as well. It reeks of a certain desperation. Some people definitely become successful in fashion because they are unpalatable in the wider world outside. Craving power and influence has to do with being able to engage with the world in the only way you know how.

“You could walk out of your MA and never do fashion again, but you still have that education. You can apply that way of being and thinking to anything you do. And it naturally happens, doesn’t it? ” – Christopher Shannon

LG: Education preparing students well for the industry is a topic I’ve come across a lot these days. Definitely, it’s two different worlds that are not matching. Which one do we change? Do we change education to look like the industry or the other way around?

CS: I would change the industry because they are what’s corrupt. You could walk out of your MA and never do fashion again, but you still have that education. You can apply that way of being and thinking to anything you do. And it naturally happens, doesn’t it? The way you decorate, choose your car, plan a party – that stays with you anyway. What I would like to see in the industry is a change in consumer habits. Don’t you want it to feel less hideous? It’s a culture that burns people out. That bit of it I can’t bear either. It’s horrible to watch people work hard and then end up in a miserable state. I don’t know why some deserve to be in that situation while others profit from that same process.

OK: Just to be the devil’s advocate for a bit. I agree with all you’re saying. We speak about this a lot within the team, we discuss it to then write about it and try to find the root of the problem. But everyone talks about designers as if they are fragile flowers. Kids who are very creative, naive, and pure. They are always called “young” and “emerging”. Most of the designers are over 25-27. I’m from Ukraine and in my country, at that age, women already have three kids and men have gone to the army. Any mistake the designers make is never attributed to them – being too lazy to research how the business works or putting their heads into relationships. There are a lot of designers in the industry now who are so cruel. They scream at others, create a toxic culture within their own team or in the house they move into. BFC only gives visas for exceptional talent to designers. I couldn’t get it, no one around me did. The reply you get is that you are not a fashion designer, so you can’t qualify. No matter what other fashion job you have. All the support, even if it’s little, is given to designers. It’s not enough, but no one else gets anything – no magazine, no stylist. It’s something, but definitely not enough. And no one else complains but designers. They do this all the time.

CS: You wanted to get that off your chest, huh?

OK: I just wanted to hear your perspective from a different angle. I totally agree on how difficult it is, and I blame the media the most.

CS: It’s also the speed of everything. The reason why people make certain decisions is pressure. Fashion, it seems to me, is the only creative industry that works that way. If you want to make an album, and you take two years, it’s fine. For someone like me, I have enough of a profile to communicate my work and sell it. I find that quite rewarding. If you’re not in my position or younger, you can quickly get caught up in the system. I would rather like to see people make one great, interesting thing and repeatedly do it again.

“Big houses don’t make money with those clothes. They make money off of luggage, perfume, and make-up. Yet, as a new designer, you’re expected to make all that revenue from selling clothes. ” – Christopher Shannon

OK: Don’t you think that that is like making an album every ten years? What designers design is not collections, it’s the whole identity of a brand. You take two years, come up with an identity and within that identity, you release ten collections which all come down to one initial idea you developed. When you look at musicians – they make an album, then they tour cities for years before they return home. That’s basically what fashion designers do. They take time to come up with one idea, and then every collection serves as a continuation of milking that same idea.

CS: What I enjoy looking at is someone who has some specific ideas and how they developed that. That, to me, is cool. I am not interested in someone who’s banging out a fifty-look collection with pieces that will never be in the store. Aside from that, they are not desirable anyway. This seems to be where luxury is right now, which then puts pressure on someone younger to mimic that format. As we know, big houses don’t make money with those clothes. They make money off of luggage, perfume, and make-up. Yet, as a new designer, you’re expected to make all that revenue from selling clothes. But luxury houses don’t sell that many clothes. Plus, they own many properties, champagne companies, etc. That fragile image of designers is true. It’s not helpful that they are painted that way.

OK:  A designer could do the same collection five times, actually improving it as they go along, and the stores would most probably be happy because they don’t want you to change. They want a continuation of a product that’s selling well. It’s the media that wants you to change all the time and be something completely new because they need content.

CS: People would show for three seasons and then get a higher-level job that they wouldn’t have got without that profile. That doesn’t seem to happen in the same way anymore.

OK: I think it is, actually. A lot of designers look at it as a career journey. They won’t apply for jobs, they’ll do their thing, struggle for three to five seasons, but then that will get them a much better job.

CS: There was a period when those jobs were around. I got the chance, right before Covid, to work at Margiela. And a few years ago, it would have been my dream to do menswear at Margiela. But it just didn’t feel right. I was surprised how experience changes you. This would just be more of the same lunacy, going from one situation into another. Even though I’d be getting paid differently, and I wouldn’t be responsible. It’s still the same machine. I’m probably romanticising an idea of what I would get out of this role if I take it. Maybe a year out of college, I would have gone for it.

“I graduated in 2009, and we were thinking about who got a great job in the industry out of that graduating year, and we couldn’t think of someone.” – Christopher Shannon

OK: In the last two years, it’s rare to hear a story of a graduate getting a good job in the industry.

CS: I graduated in 2009, and we were thinking about who got a great job in the industry out of that graduating year, and we couldn’t think of someone. And that’s shocking considering that this course is the most high-profile fashion course you can do on the planet. It has incredible staff, but it can’t guarantee you a job. Everyone has had different successes and started companies, but no one has a gorgeous job with a really good salary having a nice time.

LG: I agree. I think there’s a real difference between expectation and reality. Everybody thinks that after finishing this course, they’ll get a job within one week. I remember two weeks after graduating, we were all freaking out.

OK: But your year was completely screwed due to Covid.

CS: I think they’ve been screwed for ages, to be honest.

LG: It’s been happening for a long time, and I wouldn’t say that Covid screwed us up that much.

OK: You also have Brexit. Companies don’t want to or actually cannot hire anyone without a visa. On top of that, there is Covid, which led to a freezing period in terms of hiring. And now, you overlap with another year of graduates. There are two years worth of graduates queuing for the same jobs.

CS: I also think that many courses trade on past glories. There was a time, even before I went to college, where it was such a small scene. It was based on word of mouth, and you could get such great consultancies. However now, when you ask people if they’re consulting, no one ever is. People who got lucky with jobs during the 90s still seem to have them and hang on to them. There’s not enough work, and I understand that frustration. I’ve had many lovely interns working for me during their BAs. They come off their degrees, and they continue making collections, which I never really understood. I was up for a job at Calvin Klein when I graduated from the MA. There was a pause for one season, so I was just hanging around in London. I don’t know if I would have made another collection if there hadn’t been someone putting money in my pocket. There were two other brands I worked for, so it was quite a hustle, and I was good at it. But, the hustle gets a bit boring and exhausting.

LG: Do you think you will bring back the actual collections? Or keep it all very loose?

CS: I’m not really interested in racking over archives. I mean, we’re re-issuing a couple of prints, because people keep asking for them.

“Readily available discounted clothes – that is the antidote to fashion’s desirability.” – Christopher Shannon

OK: I’ve had this really nice jumper – “Constant Stress” – that I was dumb enough to give to a boy I dated. I broke up with him, and he didn’t give it back.

CS: You know what’s really funny about those “Constant Stress” jumpers? Loads of people who worked at Calvin Klein kept buying them. The other thing that happens in terms of desirability with e-commerce is when you sell in such quantities on so many different websites, they become graveyards for designer clothes. How are people, who are still doing shows, supposed to attain desirability when their new drop already looks like one from last season that’s already 80% off and available? I find that availability so undesirable. It really damages brands that are interesting. If you could reduce your point of sale and still make enough money in other ways, there’s something really desirable about that. I haven’t got loads of stock in a warehouse, and that feels quite good. I’m not criticising people who are doing that, it’s just something that I have noticed. There’s so much designer clothing at discount. Readily available discounted clothes – that is the antidote to fashion’s desirability. What we did last Christmas, I could have kept on producing that for months, but what for? People used to do high street collaborations and my problem with that was that you’d have a brand with an established identity, and then they start bumping out all these clothes, flooding the market. Maybe people love buying lots of cheap fashion? Luxury houses are incinerating excess stock, aren’t they? Why do you have so much excess stock? Well, because no one wanted it. If no one wanted it, it can’t be that great, right?

LG: What do you think of the pre-order model?

CS: Seems like a really good system. If you know that you’ll be able to deliver, and you’re organised enough to do it, it’s very responsible…

“Overbuying stock and throwing it in the bin is not what I call success. That, to me, is a failure.” – Christopher Shannon

LG: Maybe there’s a limit to it because pre-order means that the product will be received later. There will be pre-orders, but will those people come back? They’ll have to wait for the product longer, so that could be an issue. I don’t know myself, it’s an open question.

CS: You know what? Trying to please everyone is always a mistake. If you can build a brand in an interesting way, and it works, that to me is a success. Overbuying stock and throwing it in the bin is not what I call success. That, to me, is a failure.

LG: If the product feels very hands-on and personal, the consumer will feel that. Therefore, the person won’t mind the waiting time.

CS: The one thing I didn’t understand about pre-order was that some stock was so simplistic in its style, so why not make at least four of them? Have a handful available, that’s not a crime. Just to have a little bit of immediacy. I think it’s refreshing to see it, especially around particular pieces that have a modern feel. I’d rather have that than look at YOOX, where last season’s catwalk clothes are 80% off. That feels a bit depressing, doesn’t it?

LG: Regarding the catwalk clothes that are on sale, wouldn’t it be fair to say that it makes fashion at least a little less elitist? Amazing design becomes more approachable. Of course, it is hurtful to see certain creations 80% off, but high fashion is also more affordable to the majority of people that way? You don’t have to be rich to have good taste.

CS: I think good taste is a completely different subject. I don’t think it’s interesting, because the reason so many clothes are on sale is that there are too many of them. The good stuff goes. I don’t know why it is so difficult to make business models that don’t garner so much excess stock. Why is it always better to make more?

Students always ask me about sustainability since they’re worried about it with their own collections. You’re making three outfits. It’s not a problem. The thing you can do is not to buy fast fashion, cheap meat or plastic boxes. Just do that and, already, there’s more peace in the world. Making three pairs of jeans for a graduate show is not going to create any issues for anyone. The students are made to feel guilty about it, as if they are the ones who have to fix this problem. Actually, consuming less shit is the most useful thing.

“I am over guilt-tripping fashion students and making them think they have to solve crimes of people who are billionaires and doing nothing about it. Where are the sustainable actions from the people who have made money from waste? ” – Christopher Shannon

OK: That was so on-point. Last question – where do you teach?

CS: I just got asked. I mean, I’ve always been asked and always said “no.” I have really conflicted feelings about fashion education. During lockdown, people kept asking again, and I decided to do it because I felt the need to engage with the world. I did a couple of lessons, and then I started engaging more with it, getting feedback from the students on how much they liked it. They told me that I am really honest while no one else is honest. And I view that as a problem, because why is it so pronounced that I am honest? What are other people telling them that feels dishonest? It’s always the feedback I get. I am just not interested in leading someone down this path of loss. I have to be grateful that my education did not cost me any money, and that I got scholarships. I don’t have debt hanging over me. You can at least try to affect their journey a little, not making them feel guilty or bad about sustainability every single day, for example. It’s just cruel. If they go to Shepherd’s Bush to get some fabric, that’s not the same as Burberry ordering 4000 pieces made from a special woven fabric no one wants. Or a high street store selling clothes out of poly-fabrics made in factories by people who are treated like shit. I am over guilt-tripping fashion students and making them think they have to solve crimes of people who are billionaires and doing nothing about it. Where are the sustainable actions from the people who have made money from waste? If I talk about this too much, my blood pressure will go up, and I get really pissed off. I am just grateful that I don’t have to be a part of it. I can make limited pieces, sell them and make money that I put right back into the Northwest and decentralise the London scene. You can only do what feels good, creative, true and genuine – that is what success feels like.

 

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